Panhard Rod

[XR6 3]

Has anybody tried to fit a panhard rod to a mk5 ? how difficult is it? and is it worth doing?

[DUFFY3074 1]

Has anybody tried to fit a panhard rod to a mk5 ? how difficult is it? and is it worth doing?

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Funny I've been thinking the same thing, common enough for the mark 2 Escort so since the axle is very similar should one of these kits fit?

 

Hyundai did it for the Stellar, Ford (South Africa) did it as well...........

[hellbilly_racing 0]

There's no sense as the rear suspension is set up as a true 4 link with triangulated upper links. When viewed from the rear the axle travels near dead center as it cycles up and down, with a panhard the axle will swing from side to side; what's known as axle tramp. By my reackoning the front and rear suspension geometry on a Mk5 is pretty good, only improved by experimentation with and adjustable set up, or with rod ends on a race car...

[hellbilly_racing 0]

Not to mention that if you fit a panhard to the existing suspension it will bind. You'd have to relocate the upper arms to parallel, or replace them both with a single control rod to handle torque loads in the axle.

 

If you wanted to be really clever and get the 'ultimate' geometry, you could swap the upper links around so that the arms angled in from the ends of the axle to a single point on the centerline of the shell; this would result in a roll center that stays consistent with the center of gravity of the car, throughout the entire range of axle travel. This would be inconsiquential on a road car because of the small amounts of travel involved....

[White Wagon 0]

When viewed from the rear the axle travels near dead center as it cycles up and down, with a panhard the axle will swing from side to side; what's known as axle tramp.

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Axle tramp is when the rear suspension loads & then unloads in quick succession when pulling away causing a loss of traction, it's also known as wheel hop for obvious reasons, whether a panhard is fitted or not makes no difference to tramp.

 

Al

[bortaf 96]

Not to mention that if you fit a panhard to the existing suspension it will bind. You'd have to relocate the upper arms to parallel, or replace them both with a single control rod to handle torque loads in the axle.

 

If you wanted to be really clever and get the 'ultimate' geometry, you could swap the upper links around so that the arms angled in from the ends of the axle to a single point on the centerline of the shell; this would result in a roll center that stays consistent with the center of gravity of the car, throughout the entire range of axle travel. This would be inconsiquential on a road car because of the small amounts of travel involved....

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Hyundai uses the same set up as Mk3/4/5 with just a panhard rod added (slightly different top arm mounting) but the angles are the same cos the are interchangable between cortina and stellar.

[DUFFY3074 1]

There's no sense as the rear suspension is set up as a true 4 link with triangulated upper links. When viewed from the rear the axle travels near dead center as it cycles up and down, with a panhard the axle will swing from side to side; what's known as axle tramp. By my reackoning the front and rear suspension geometry on a Mk5 is pretty good, only improved by experimentation with and adjustable set up, or with rod ends on a race car...

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Nope, sorry gotta disagree on this one. I remember a tech article in triple C back in the 80's when I had my first Cortie (My mark 4 2.0S)

 

The problem with the rear suspension on the Cortie is that the rear links are different lengths, this means that when the rear wheels bump, they describe an arc upwards and inwards, this imparts a sideways motion to the shell and is one of the main reasons that the rear end of a mark 3 to 5 Cortie is so skitterish.

 

The panhard rod provides an extra plane of control and stops the axle imparting as much of a sidewards motion to the shell.

Ergo that's why Hyundai and Ford SA did it to the Stellars and more pwerful Cortina that they did.

[XR6 3]

So would you fit one to yours then duffy (spent about a hour reading up on your posts last night brilliant job... Top Banana) had a quick look under mine this morning would`nt the shocks be in the way, its a bit tight for space I,m not totolly convinced that the panhard rod will do the job having just two anchor points compared the four anchor points with the watts system I,m talking about serious fast cornering track days events as I what to build a race car but suitable for street use :rant:

[bortaf 96]

So would you fit one to yours then duffy (spent about a hour reading up on your posts last night brilliant job... Top Banana) had a quick look under mine this morning would`nt the shocks be in the way, its a bit tight for space I,m  not totolly convinced that the panhard rod will do the job having  just two anchor points compared the four anchor points with the watts system I,m talking about serious fast cornering track days events as I what to build a race car but suitable for street use :rant:

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If you want the ultimate rear end mate fit a sierra IRS, theres a few "Taylor Made" Conversions out there running this set up, very stable in the corners, lot's of work but a giant leap forward in terms of road holding and comfort :afro:

The hyundai uses the compleat floor pan from a cortina (including the boot floor) so clearance shouldn't be an issue.

[DUFFY3074 1]

So would you fit one to yours then duffy (spent about a hour reading up on your posts last night brilliant job... Top Banana) had a quick look under mine this morning would`nt the shocks be in the way, its a bit tight for space I,m  not totolly convinced that the panhard rod will do the job having  just two anchor points compared the four anchor points with the watts system I,m talking about serious fast cornering track days events as I what to build a race car but suitable for street use :D

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Thanks for that :D

 

Yep I will as soon as I can get one. I'm upgrading to panhard rod, stellar rear anti roll bar, rear discs with 5 stud fitment and ABS all round as soon as I can get the bits together. I'd also like to throw in LSD of some sort

[blackadder 0]

Don't do it, Cortina suspension already has enough binding built in. So much so that if all the bushes were steel sleeves with no rubber it would be solid and not move at all!

 

It only works because of all the rubber in it! Oh and the amount you can twist the top arms cause there not boxed. (Never box in the top arms, they must twist)

 

Torn out your poly bushes? Nothing to do with you engines power, everything to do with poor design, binding suspension.

 

Adding a panhard will make it worse. As has already been pointed out will move the axle left and right as the panhard moves in an arc through bump and rebound.

 

If you want to improve things cheaply and easier than fabricating a panhard, see Steve Taylor or look at one that's already done and chuck an entire sierra rear end under it. Yes it still has its compromises from a suspension design point of view but its a production car design not a race car. Can't put up with that? Then you certainly wouldn't even consider anything less than a proper 4-link (and I don't mean the nasty piece of poo you can buy for £200 for the escorts). Look at the price of decent rod ends, it will give you a clue how much a well-sorted back end really costs.

 

Sierra back end is the easy way and will cost less than two decent rod ends for a panhard.

 

 

 

Cortina rear suspension Bad points:-

 

Live axle

High roll center (top of axle casing)

Pro squat (made worse by lowering)

Binding

Dampers only 70% efficient due to mounting angle (made worse by lowering)

Spring not direct acting

Negative caster

 

Good points:-

Roll understeer (safe)

 

I have spent many hours considering many different re-designs of the 3/4/5 Cortina back end. The only thing that helps the existing design (with all its failings) is one that improves the binding problem. The solution (untested but theory is there) is to press fit some spherical bearing into the top of the axle housing but overall with all its other failings considered the only decent conclusion so far is to junk it and start again.

 

 

One other comment on the front, yes it is 90% there, and would give it 9/10 for effort. 1st step would be solid mount the subframe, 2nd more difficult step would be to address the massive amounts of pro-dive built in. This would involve raising the rear arm mounts(top and bottom) and lowering the front. Also the tie bar should be level at ride height (and the steering arm but thats bump steer and a whole different story) I have seriously concidered rotating the whole subframe (could be achieved when solid mounting subframe with some offset steel bushes)and then move the top and bottom ball joints to restore caster. Like many things have not got round to doing it to prove my idea.

Edited April 18, 2006 by blackadder

[REALWHEELDRIVER 0]

S'funny all this was mentioned now...

im in the process of fitting a watts linkage to the back of mine thinking it may take the pressure off the void bushes.....

wot u all think??

si

[XR6 3]

S'funny all this was mentioned now...

im in the process of fitting a watts linkage to the back of mine thinking it may take the pressure off the void bushes.....

wot u all think??

si

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looks like your gone be the bench mark on this one, keep us posted any pics good luck ...TinTin

[blackadder 0]

Why do I bother! These forums are for the purpose of sharing knowledge and while I don’t profess to be an expert I clearly know more than some.

 

Did anyone ever think the void's were put in the bushes for a reason???

 

Anyone THINKING at all???

 

What happens to those top arms in roll? They twist, fitting poly bushes will it stop them twisting??? NO, it just twists the arms instead until the poly wears out.

 

The Voids were there for a reason, (to allow twisting).

 

The real reason is poor suspension design, to resolve the void bush issue (as already stated in my last post) is to fit a spherical bearing in one end.

 

 

 

This is just blind stupidity bolt it on and boot it, see if that works, that sort of thing ??

 

Don't waste your time with a watts on an otherwise std Cortina back end. Please tell me what you will achieve, or plan to achieve? What is the theory you are working on????

 

THINK about what you are doing!!! Two roll centers in different positions will bind in roll. What happens when you have a leaver between two points (approx 4 inch appart) the size of an axle casing and put 1500kg of car on it??

 

I know what will happen so let me know when you snap off your mounting points and I can laugh.

 

"Er yer m8 ive got so much power and was cornering at 4 G's so I snapped/bent/twisted the mounts"

 

Of course you did, mate.

 

I'm out, cant be arsed. :D

 

Just THINK !! :D

[bortaf 96]

Jeeze calm down, is no-one else alowd to have ideas you havn't vetted personly?

 

Yes i am thinking and then i went one step further and tested the mods before i do em, hense i bought a stellar and drove it.

The reason behind my fitting an hyundai rear axle and panhard rod is simple, ive driven both and the hyundai has far better handling and comfort, they use softer springs with thicker ARB's and a panhard rod and soon so will i :D

I agree that poly bushes are not the best thing at times, i've actually reverted to rubber in a frew places on the rear mainly because i don't like deflexs re-design of the bushes cos they hold the arms too ridgid, they should have left the design the same like superflex have, i found the rear too skittish with full poly bushing so have reverted to rubber at the chassis end of the arms, till i can afford some more superflex bushes to try out.

 

 

As much as i admire Steves work and agree the sierra rear end is far far better (see my earlyer post were i recomend it), i really can't see that being easyer than just swapping in a hyundai axle and welding in the mount from the hyundai to the cortina boot floor (yes the prop flange need changing but again it's another bolt on thing).

We're not all engineers but still like to do our own thing :D i don't weld, never got on with it, so wouldn't attemp something as involved as a sierra IRS but i still wan't to do my own mods myself.

Edited April 18, 2006 by bortaf